split from ldv/bike rideout - Freeman of the land

[ratticusmc]

it also has the highest taxes, the worst roads and the worst health system. as well as being generally dirty, grubby and, well, i'd prefer to live anywhere than here (mainly canada or australia)

[Thing]

Then move.

No offence meant, but if you dislike it so much here, that's the answer.

As it goes we don't have the highest taxes, though we are close. Check out Norway if you want some really brutal tax.

Our roads are bad, in places, yes. But then again seen Greece's, or Spain's, or numerous other EU countries?

And as for our health service. Well, yes it's got its issues, but it can be outstanding. It saved the life of my ex-wife when she was diagnosed with Hodgkin's Lymphoma. It saved my mum's life from cancer too. It's not great, for sure, but it is a state health service which we benefit from via our taxes and NI payments. Not totally sure here, but I don't think either Canada or Australia have a public health service. And besides, didn't you say you wanted to continue paying NI so you had access to the health service?

I agree with Trigg to a degree, that for all its flaws - our government being one - it's not actually that bad a country to live in. However I can accept anyone saying they dislike it if they then follow up by doing something about that. Just saying you hate it, the country, then sticking around kind of doesn't work for me.

[Elron Hubward]

(edited for the usual atrosious speling and granmar)

If Michael Moore is to be believed (he touched on it in Sicko - worth a watch, but with the usual; Moore "selective" approach to journalism) then Canada does indeed have a health service that is free at the point of delivery... much like the NHS.

I'm sorry Thing, I have to disagree with you on your "love it or leave it" stance.

I firmly believe that I have won first place in the lottery of life by having been born in the UK and an Englishman to boot.

However, I am disgusted by the absolute dirtwads that run our country and their lack of accountability to us... and don't let me give you the impression I mean just "new" Labour; they're all just as bad as each other.

Their pathetic attempts to garner popularity by jumping on whatever bandwagon presents itself, and the long, looong list of broken promises and u-turns indicates exactly what they are; self-interested parasites who will do whatever they can just to maintain their poisitions and that the interests of the common man are way below their radar.

I despise our woefully unfair and inefficient (and ineffective) criminal justice system and those that enforce it, and the tweaking of said system to nerf our remaining civil liberties whenever it suits the ruling elite.

I despise the way that every new advance in technology means that it takes less folk to run the infrastructure of the country, and should therefore mean lower working hours and better conditions for us all... but ends up as a wave of redundancies and pay increases for the bosses.

All the while, the myth is maintained that if you aren't working 40+hrs a week for your pittance, then you are somehow not a fit human being.

Don't wanna get too far into it here, but Marx was right in that a large reserve labour pool is essential to the proper functioning of a capitalist society (paraphrasing there). We have high unemployment by design and the b*stards in charge know it. Without the threat of demotion to the jobless underclass, and the derision and discrimination inherent in that, how else can they get folk to do the crappy jobs for low pay?

However, I do love my country (despite the crappy weather) and live in hope that one day it will live up to the ideals that those governing us purport to hold, rather than just pay lip service too on public holidays and in the run up to elections.

We ALL deserve better, and hopefully when the revolution comes (again... only this time please not the Puritans) and the pigs are forced from their troughs and up against the wall for their final ciggarette/cigar/cigarillo/pipe/moch-chocca-latte-with-extra-foam (delete as applicable) I for one will be cheering from just behind the riflemen... assuming I can't get hold of a gun meself.

Vive la revolution!!

[Thing]

I agree with you, mate, in that the government of this country is flawed to the point of ridiculousness. That certain aspects of our society, in Britain, are pretty crap. But my point was it could be worse. There are a fair few countries, even in the EU that have a worse deal than we do.

To say "I wish I lived anywhere but here" then just continue living here and at the same time try to 'drop out' of our system whilst not even attempting to do anything about it, though, strikes me as wrong. Yes, it's hard for the man on the street to change our system, or even influence it, but it surely can be done. So the question would be "do you (royal you, no one specific) want better here and are you willing to try and work for it, or not". If the answer is the latter then I see two main choices - lump it and carry on or bugger off.

Dropping out of society, as these 'Freemen on the land' are attempting to do (whilst only dropping out of things that don't suit them) won't achieve anything.

[Elron Hubward]

Disagree.

It is virtually imposible for the man on the street to influence things under our current political system. In order to stand a chance of altering things in Parliament, you have to become an MP.

With certain rare exceptions (usually independants running on a one local issue ticket), all prospective MPs are selected by the local party group to stand against the other "teams".

If your politcial views do not follow the party line, or if you have ownership of a penis and women only shortlists are in vogue, you stand no chance of being selected to even run for election as an MP.

So; two choices.

Stick to your guns and stay faithful to your beliefs... and never ever stand a chance of becoming an MP.

Or... compromise your principles and tow the party line in order to get into a position of power.

Thus we end up with a system where aspirant politicians have almost universally compromised their beliefs in order to even stand a chance of becoming MPs.

With the party whips handing out directives every time there's an issue that the party leadership wants pushed through, and the bribes of positions on various committees (and attendant expenses) and cabinet posts for the "worthy", how slippery does the slope have to be for us to end up with a pack of lying, unworthy, traitorous and duplicitous scumbags in the House of Commons? Not very I'd say.

This also ensures that your local MP represents the interests of the party, and not of the constituents who elected him to power to look after their interests, as they all inevitably promise that they will.

I won't even bother to mention obligations to those funding your particular political party and the attendant non-executive directorships available for the compliant when the gravy train grinds to a halt and the other mob get in for their turn at the trough. Oh... too late... I did. Nevermind. I'm sure it can't be as bad as I imagine really.

Offhand the only politician I can think of who struck me as even being close to honest and straight is Tony Benn, and look at the flack he got for it, even from his own party.

Getting back to the earlier direction of the thread, I think that opting out by becoming a Freeman is a perfectly valid point of view... just isn't for me because I'd feel like a hypocrite going through the procedure involved.

[gsxf1100]

ratticus - be carefull what you wish for.
i lived in some countrys in the past for a while.
you not so bad up here.
england has compar to other countrys a lot benefits and loopholes in the law.
yes what you hear and see as tourist is may what you want. living there is different.
every gov has issus and make probs fro his peeps.
rich tells, poor follows. simple.

but you right, too much taxes compare to other !
you pay tax on you earning, whatever you buy, petrol and diesel, water, ground, house and so on.

and his in % higher to other countries. yes.

but if you been in prison once allready i think the dont let you in the usa. i dont know about canada.

[trigg]

it also has the highest taxes, the worst roads and the worst health system. as well as being generally dirty, grubby and, well, i'd prefer to live anywhere than here (mainly canada or australia)

Roads are bad in places. try greece or parts of russia.

Helath service. saved my wifes life and my Son who was 2lbs7 when he was born.

Police force. OK they give out tickets like confetti. We have had a lot of problems in our neighbourhood a couple of years ago as a community we approached the Police and they sorted it.

Being dirty. Maybe we could do better. try the Ivory coast or Casablanca or China stay away from some of the water ways though as they will turn your skin green.

Taxes as thing says we are up there but we are by no means the worst.

I would love to go to Canada and Australia and Newzealand. They look like wonderfull countries. I suppose looking from the outside our country looks good to. Thats probably becuase it is.

You have started a really good debate here ratticusmc Merry christmas and a prosperous new year.

[ratticusmc]

i dont mind a good debate...

Thing - if i were to move, then I wouldn't be able to be with friends, family etc. I also wouldn't be able to have this sort of discussion with you guys 2bh. I AM moving, and to Norway or Finland of all places. It's extortionate, but it's quality!

GSFX - I have been researching freemen on the land for years, and am fully aware of what other countries are like, both "inside" the system, and the public/tourist sides. I KNOW that other places are worse, but I never said I wanted to go to them. All that I was saying is that we need a better system. As has been said - the criminal justice system is a farce. We need someone to go through the full LAWS of this country and present them properly to the public.

but it is a state health service which we benefit from via our taxes and NI payments

If we pay for it, surely it's not a benefit - it's a service. We pay for it, and therefor we should get the best service for what we pay for. This is not always the case. I was DISCHARGED with my foot in 13 peices after an accident. No rods, no cast nothing. That was Weston-Super-Mare hospital. I put a clutch lever into my groin, got 4 stitches in total and they split next day. I can't see any reason why we pay it. The reason I wish to CONTINUE paying for this SERVICE, is so that, should the need arise and - god forbid - one of these crashes could be fatal, then I have the ability to use the ambulance service and the hospital, without having to worry about a bill afterwards.

By the way - you call it a benefit. It's a LAWFULL and God-Given (that does carry a LOT of clout within the LAW) RIGHT


Trigg - ever since I went to switzerland I've been disgusted by the state that the inhabitants of this country are happy to leave it in. If people pulled their fingered out of their arse (this is with everything - not just the general state) we could have a REALLY nice country

Merry Christmas to y'all...speak to you around teh 28th - I'm going down south to the missus parents for xmas... and get to pick up the CB prject :D

[Abo]

CUCKOO !!!!!!!

[Thing]

Aye a good debate indeed!

Norway or Finland huh? Superb. I've a couple of mates in Norway and apart from some bizarre rules regarding alcohol it sounds like a marvellous country. Mind you, it's going to cost you a darn sight more to live there than it does here!

I do agree with you that our system - government, taxation, criminal and to a degree NHS isn't great. The first two, as Elron rightly points out, with have little control over trying to change. But there is some hope. The criminal justice system, well we've probably no chance to change! The NHS however - yes, I've heard of stories like yours where folks are woefully let down by it, but I've also heard stories where it has been outstanding. My ex, for instance. She was in serious trouble with Hodgkins Lymphoma and probably would have died. However the NHS sorted her (this is, of course, a very abridged version of what happened) and she survived. She in fact not only survived the cancer but went on to have two children - something that was, according to the Professor that treated her, highly unlikely.

There's good and bad in every system. Personally I'm glad we have an NHS and my experiences of it have generally been good. Not totally, but generally. I also know people who have had disastrous experiences of private health care.

As for a God-given right? Nope - the NHS isn't a right. It's a service, and it is a benefit too. It's there for all in this country whether they pay in to it or not. Even if you stopped paying NI and needed an ambulance you'd get one. We're not at the stage the States are in that you pretty much have to prove means to pay before the service will do anything. Yes, the ambulance service can choose to charge you for using them, especially if it is deemed and un-necessary use of the service, but to the best of my knowledge this rarely happens.

And please, don't bring 'God' in to it. I can tell you're not an idiot - it's clear you've put a lot of effort in to the whole Freeman thing. But God (or like Elron says so prosaically, whatever 'Sky-Fairy' you choose to worship) has nothing to do with the NHS, Government, justice system or anything else!

All the best, hope you (and everyone else) have a jolly silly-season!

[babyscrape]

DR10 is drink driving as I was young and stupid and have this on my licence!

[ratticusmc]

babyscrape - I have DR10's, and they are for driving whilst disqualified... still have all court paperwork to prove it. NEVER drink drive, because I DON'T DRINK!

[Mac the Knife]

sorry ratticus but a dr10 is for driving under the influence of alcohol. i know that for a fact as i was banned for it and it was on the back of my new licence for many years there after.

[Mac the Knife]

btw for your info all codes for driving whilst disqualified begin with BA. ie BA10 BA20 BA30. have a google n u will see.

[ratticusmc]

but but but... I've NEVER drunk driven and I've never been to court for it but that's what's on my license??? hmmmm convuzzled....

[iank]

Hey hey.. been off for a while.
Enjoyed reading through all the thread so far... i like this sort of thread - its good how we all have a view and are free to express it... (oh, thats right other more oppressive countries dont allow public discussion over matter's of the state and its governance..... glad im in Englad not one of them! hehe!)

Go through in sort of chronological order:

GSXF - I do agree with many of the points you expressed, however a few things made me want to add comments....
You say policemen don't have the power to stop and search your person without a warrant or confirming you as a criminal suspect.... However: my best mate's wife is a copper in London and daily has to impose her right to "STOP & SEARCH". The law entails FAR too much paperwork afterwards (bout 10mins for every search!!) but is a right they possess and are made to do on a regular basis as a deterrent in areas knows as 'hotspots' of youth violent activity....

You are also correct on the police being a public servant. But then you go on to discuss how they give you fines and speeding tickets when they want etc....
As you said - they are SERVANTS... they follow the rules that are laid out for them and have a duty to impose penalties on members of the public who disregard these rules... (unless they have written to the queen stating they live in the 1200s mentally that is! )

The rules - for example speeding limits - are not there decision. Whether we like it or not, they have been based around safety margins on collisions and so are imposed in the line of safety.. in general.

Do not get me wrong - some limits stink - and some gatso's are clearly revenue seeking... However this is not the general ploody's fault in my opinion. The speeding limit system is flawed. It works on the lowest common denonomator theory.... I.e. if you have an advanced driver and an absolute imbecile driving on the same road the advanced driver could argue he should be able to go 35mph as he is more aware of hazards and would only use the top limit when safe, whereas the crap driver is likely to go the top limit the whole way through as they are unaware when it is not safe to do so... etc etc...

As coppers cannot impose limits to different people based on skill (or indeed car type (v v old drum brakes, to new abs discs etc..) they have to make a limit which it is the safest realistic speed at which the crap driver can do minimal damage to whatever or whoever they veer into!

It's crap, and i dont always stick to the limits... but when i break them i do so knowing i am prepared to take the consequences of my actions should i be repremanded for not adhering to the letter of the law.

The main solution to this would be to allow coppers to have discretion - i.e. speeding in a straight line on the empty M1 at 3am with no-one else around should be treated far less harshly than at rush hour weaving in and out of cars etc.....


ELECTIONS - you mention they are ineffective and whoever you chose has no effect - its the same each yr... I strongly disagree, and if you want to pledge a wager i will lay the other side of it for a very hefty sum as i strongly believe you will see change in the forthcoming election.

IMIGRANT WORKERS - been dug up in so many old threads, so will not involve discussion too much here... but it boils down to there are a lot of legal low paid work jobs that Brits refuse to do for the money.... if Poles etc are willing to come in and work for that money in that job, then can they really complain.. they can resolve the problem - do that job if they want it....... You wouldnt buy a tyre from a shop selling it at £100 when you can get it for £95 down the road, so why would an employer bow down to a Brit when a Pole will do it for less.... it sounds harsh but it is labour pool competition.

but anyway - that side is calming down a bit with construction etc all going up the spout loads of migrants are popping home again! heehee!

You state your distain for "them" setting up their own communities and mention their religious beliefs and cultures separating them from the other publics in the area....
Well in my opinion: If people wish to come here - i agree live by the rules that are in place in the area you move to.. but as for having theor own communities as being wrong... I dont think they should have to radically change their way of life, religion or culture.... why should they - it's who they are.... If you come down to live near me in london i wouldnt demand you talk in a southern accent - the principle is the same....... But until Brits can learnt to accomadate other beliefs and cultures, and stop outcasting so many of these people, can you blame them for setting upo shop near each other where they feel more accepted?

...............................................

Elron:
GOOD KNOWLEDGE! obv clued up matey!
But i cant help but think if a FMofTL is so sick of all the rules and technicalities that they have to then write to the queen and opt in, opt out and shake it all about etc.... seems show they actually dont mind following rules and technicality to the exact letter....... just their ends are such that suit them better than the rules that govern the general public - so they can be conformants to such rules - as it suits them (both philosophically and financially!)

..............................................

TRIGG: TOP MAN! I was in need of some good ol' pride reading the thread.. nice to know there are some others who realise they were born with their metephorical bread well and truly buttered.........
Nothing will ever be perfect... if we all want a healthcare system as good as a private service, it would require more money through taxation - and as such people would moan about that!

Its a trade off and one that i believe works VERY EFFECTIVELY.... in my opinion of course....

Yes tax does in part go to MP wages etc... but it also covers soooo many good things. And quite frankloy, there is slack in any buy/sell or pay/receive transaction....
I.e. when you buy a telly, you dont pay cost, as their is a huge amount of slack in their which i a lump of margin.......
Or, when you are at work, and nip off for that cup of tea.... (or spend 20mins writing this!) you are getting paid to work, not do anything else - but you do.....

There are far better examples - but i hope you see what i mean - its just inefficiency - and there is a lot in govt admittedly - but as we have seen with the expenses revelation - it is slowly but surely being slightly refined....

..............................

Ratticus:
Worst Roads.... yeah totally see where you are coming from when i drove the length of the country on boxing day the main thing that went through my head is - damn i wish i was on the ROAD OF BONES, it would be so much more relaxing...... seriously?!?!

Worst Healthcare: Again? huh> As you can see by the few families on here that are alive and kicking to this day due to our healthcare system is testiment alone to how much it is a proven effective system.

Without going into it too much let me just pose this to you:
Look at how much you have paid in to the NHS.... it will be but thousands in total....
And this didnt just go to treatment - it went on equiptment and indeed new hospitals so you could crash at more places and get there (via ambulances that it pays for too) soon enough to be ok.....
So please compare the single figure thousands that you have paid into the pot and compare it to the tens of thousands that you have not had to pay in medical bills for all the operation put together.... I would call that a quite beneficial relationship!!

As for it not being a benefit as you pay for it - please look at the first definition that came up on google:...

Definitions of benefit on the Web:
* financial assistance in time of need

I.e. like you have received the assistance of probably 90% of your medical bills in return for contributing a small amount each month......

You might well be correct in it being a Lawful God-given Right to receive it... but surely in turn for the fulfillment of the Duty to contribute..

The Hippocratic Oath requires any medical professional to treat a patient... but doesnt mean he has to do so for FREE!
Go get shot in America, get treated for free.. and then strugle to pay the $5k bill you get given once you come round from anesthetic.....

OTHER COUNTRIES - as someone else said - often other places look great on holiday, and not so great when you live there - i know i lived in greece!! If you hate it... ta ta mate and safe travels.. but i would hazard a guess that Aussies wouldnt tolerate any lateral thinking akin to the Freeman idea so just bare it in mind before you go to the Australian historical library to dig around in some ancient texts there.....

.........................................................

Elron: CRAPPY GOV!
Massively agree, should be more transparent and accountable - just ahrd to do it i suppose.
Maybe do Primeminister vetting Biannially (every 2 yrs) and if not in majority favour the opposing party candidate gets to review policy and submit to a UK election etc??

But policies used to be polarised - with one parties manifesto being the opposite of the other nearly... but as voter's prefernces became less hardcore and more voter being won over with shtty policies like Jade Goody statues in London (actually was one here in S London!!) that they have to bandwagon policies like you say to get votes.... If they put out a decent manifesto they believed in - the majority of idiotic tw4ts voting would not go with it and so they could never get in to implement good policy...

They are still parasitic self interested arses a lot of the time - but im just trying to show the flipside..

then you have the Pol;itical Ratchet argument.. i.e. labour will pour ALL the money into Long Term building projects like schools and hospitals before loosing to Conservatives, and so if conservatives want to do anything they promised they need more money (as cant be seen to stop building a hospital etc) so have no option but to increase taxes - its all dirty but is happening right now!

AUTOMATION: Yes it is bad, but i suppose with global competition overseas doing it, they have little choice to maintain competitive margins... Seems harsh but could one not argue it is better to become automated and keep 70% of the staff for next 10 yrs, then not and keep 100% of staff for a year until they go bankrupt for not competing with rival firms etc..... just an argument...



Im off to rest my hands! sorry if i have put everyone to sleep but lots of good discussion points by people said and didnt want to not reply - will try and get on sooner next time!!!

[gsxf1100]

hi iank.

happy new year for a start.

i agree with some you reply'd on here.

but, as i lived in a couple countrys as well, i stick to my opinion to reading the law on the exact line.

to the fact police power, be honest, yes they may have some powers, but i do not need to agree with all off them.

they give you a fine strict on the books, so i see the right going strict on this if i feel harrased, acused or threatend by them.
and i admitt i be responsible for 3 policeofficers to loose there jobs for not following the books, for my favour in the past 4 years.

iam not proud of it , but it was nessesary to stand my point and so i did. simple.

and if you read the news its going more and more on this. nottingham sacked 7 officers for such reasons about compleins from the public, just couple weeks back.

to the goverment, you right but as a acitizen i would like having someone ruling the country who looks after me, not tzunami problems 1000 miles away or a warfield 2000 miles away. and even some people who are hungry 3000 miles away.
or another thing, why should i want my goverment guys looking good to the rest off the world and saying we having the safest roads and best pies in the world? what is it doing good for us personnel ?

i have friends in the raf and even they saying these days why should we protect people in irak or iran, as all we get is hate from them.
this makes me thing about - why we are doing it then?
yes to get our oil and petrol from them, but there religion and war is not ours and we can not stop them to do it.

there is a lot we could talk about it, but i think everyone has his own opinion and i personnel accept the fact that people stand for theres.

this is a good post here and a lot people said there part to it.
i defently following it as it is interesting.

[ratticusmc]

Ratticusmc... are you being serious about this FMoTL stuff?
It's the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard.....

If it's So ridiculous, then why does it work, and why are upwards of 15000 people doing it in this country right this minute?

You are telling me you use an ancient scripture written in 1215 stating and binding the rights of free and fettered persons of the country in that time... and you are using this as an applicable text to live under over 790 yrs later...

The fact that it was written in 1215 makes no difference. A LAW CANNOT BE ALTERED OR CHANGED, nor can it be overwritten. The only difference is how the government DO change laws, which is by changing the meaning of words (look up any word in blacks law dictionary's original book, then look it up in Blacks law Dictionary 9th edition)

It makes me wonder first and foremost if you would even consider doing so if it did not work so economically in your favour.....

The reasons behind my doing it are irrelevant. I personally want to be free. Free from other people's gripes, rules of a society that I don't consent to be in, and free from having to ask permission for something I am entitled to do anyway (anything I have to ask for a license for)

I would like to ask you a few questions if i may....
I take it you refuse to pay taxes under this following.... so you do not contribute to the state pot in any way....

I would refuse to pay taxes. i would refuse to pay taxes on the basis that this country is ONLY allowed to tax it's people in times of war...(wonder why we're ALWAYS at war with someone?) However, I would still be making a donation similar to the one I allready make to the National Insurance (which was in fact, solely made to keep the COUNTRY from going into debt - that failed)

1. Do you accept healthcare if you are ill?
- Whether it be from a GP or a hospital, unless you have private medical cover: I and all others working bloddy hard to get by and paying so much away in tax and national insurance to contribute to such "public receivables" and i would like to know if you have the cheek to consume these services for which you have decided you shouldnt pay for...

Read my original postings, I WILL be donating to N.I. which will "entitle" me to receive the benefits of the NHS.

2. Do you have children in Education?
- Again, unless you are putting them through private education, the same cheek would be assumed if you were to be educating your children (if applicable - of course) and others picking up the tab.

No, I don't, but when I do have children that would be of age to be educated (under statute law), mine will have allready started to be educated through HOME SCHOOLING.

3. Do you accept refuse refusal?
- Another public receivable paid for from the state pot, constituted from income/council taxation. If you are not paying in, seems a bit selfish to accept the benefits of a service others are paying for...

I recycle the entirity of my waste, food is turned into compost for mine and other allotments, and the rest of my waste is recycled through the art organisation on Station Street, where I volunteer my time as "payment" for this service.

4. You surely benefit from road maintanence / streetlighting?
- Here we go again... if you dont pay in, and yet there are streetlights on all the roads... who do you think paid for that?!?....

Show to me which tax the payments for these comes from. there is NO evidence that this comes from council tax or any other tax. The government sets a budget for your local council to do such work, which DOESN'T come from a tax, but is the profits of the company United Kingdom PLC (listed as a trading company on Dunn and Bradstreet).
5. The list goes on forever.... And WHY?...
- BECASUE THE MAGNA CARTER WAS WRITTEN 790 YEARS AGO!!!

For example.. of course it doesnt cover road tax, and tv licenses..... cars and TVs DIDN'T EXIST!!!!

You're quite right there. However, the LAW (not statute) does say that any free man may use the King's (interpret Queen's) highway unmolested and with no charge.

This country as a developed country has built an impressive infrastructure of electricity, lighting, sewerage, waterways, roads, rail networks, business and community housing..... All along with impressive safety measures such as a justice system with a comprehensive network of police staff (oh, we pay for them too) and a supreme defense base of Armed Services which keep our country (you included) safe from a lot of the nasties going on all over the world......

All of this had to be paid for since the Magna Carter was written, and hence measures had to be put into place to facilitate money to be received by the state... Afterall: No-one at all is going to willingly pay for a stretlight themselves when they know if they wait and someone else pays for it they receive the same benefit once it exists..... I.E: Public receivables can only be provided if they are paid for by the public.......

Simply opting out of these duties is ridiculous when you are so willing to receive the benefits. It is no different than if you went into a curry house this evening and ordered a great big meal, had a great time consuming it all and then refusing to pay on the grounds that it doesnt say you have to in the MAGNA CARTER!

It is an old and outdated script that has no application in today's modern world. It is obselete. And any compliance to your followings of this script by any person of municipal or judicial authority is proof of nothing less than the lack of authority they have to overule such absurdities at their lawful discretion.

There were many taxes in the times the Magna Carter were written on common lands, arable lands, lordship taxes as well as corrupt local taxes throughout the land.... I take it you will claim you would pay these if the lords requiring them were still allive to claim them....

The truth of the matter is that there was no central governing body when the Magna was written, as there was no way to disseminate any decision quickly and effectively accross the country - hence rendering a central governing body uselss.

Now we have so many ways of broadcasting any decisions made - we can have a central party manage the building of infrastructure and governance of the country and its funds..... So people now pay the local taxes (council tax) to this cetral government... and income tax has been around since time began.... only it is more fair now then in your times as it used to be the rich who paid the least and the poor who paid the most....

I really look forward to your response, and i hope i have got the wrong end of the stick and that you are joking about all this stuff...

If indeed you are not, i really would like to see how you justify the becomming of a great nation's internal development and its external safety if all people were to have followed your beliefs for the last 790 yrs... And taking that point as recognised - how you can then justify yourself to be anything other than a freeriding parasite on society.

Ah the police staff...the policy keepers. Employed to keep the policy's and statutes of the society. Also a company operating for profit (Dunn and Bradstreet) who don't know the difference between statutes and LAW. The WHOLE job of a policy keeper is to keep the peace. Which they rarely do. I am NOT paying for a company that cannot prove the loyalty and sincerity of it's employee's. I will pay for them when they prove that their are no bent cops whatsoever. Which is impossible, because there always will be.

I have never said that "because it doesn't say something in the magna carter, it doesn't exist". What I have stated is that a lot of the statutes that we are lead to beleive are law are acting in contravention with the Laws laid by the Magna Carter and the Common law of the Land. Maritime law (statute law) has no place on the land, but is equally enforcable, if not more....why? (why do you think you are placed in the DOCKS in court?

I will pay taxes to those I deem fit. If something is NOT consented to in this country, you don't have to do it. FACT. If you do not consent to paying taxes, then you don't have to do it. You just lose those inalienable rights that this government call "benefits".

Unfortunately, I must disappoint you and tell you that I HAVEN'T got the "wrong end of the stick" and that I am deadly serious. I wish to live free, under my own steam as it were, and not have to be governed by anyone who claims that they are in a more authorative position then I am. In the eyes of the divine, all men were created equally. This said, i have the same power to do as the any other person does. Also, if I have the power to elect someone to do a job for me, and make decisions for me, then I have the equal power to do said jobs and make said decision myself.

I really am glad that people do take abject views to this topic, because, not only does it give me more chance to do a littel bit more research, but allows me to see those who actually need governing. (namely those who are quite happy to sit back and take it in the arse from the government and society who tax everything and anything, legalise those substances which should be class A due to their effects - both long term and short term - but criminalise those which have little effect and make its users peaceful. For the record, I use NONE of the drugs - I don't smoke, toke, inject, or sup anything.

However, surely in one sense, you can look at it as, of those 15000 people, surely 5000 or more must have been on JSA, income support, incapacity benefits, housing aid or the likes, and you're not paying for them any more. But I'm sure the government still charge you the same amount of taxes (if not more) even though they are paying for less.[/quote]

[ratticusmc]

GSXF - I do agree with many of the points you expressed, however a few things made me want to add comments....
You say policemen don't have the power to stop and search your person without a warrant or confirming you as a criminal suspect.... However: my best mate's wife is a copper in London and daily has to impose her right to "STOP & SEARCH". The law entails FAR too much paperwork afterwards (bout 10mins for every search!!) but is a right they possess and are made to do on a regular basis as a deterrent in areas knows as 'hotspots' of youth violent activity....

Incorrect, this has come from the Metropolitan police service website;
[quote= Metropolitan Police Service]
Being stopped does not mean you are under arrest or have done something wrong. In some cases, people are stopped as part of a wide-ranging effort to catch criminals and deter would-be terrorists in a targeted public place.
A police officer, or a community support officer must have a good reason for stopping or searching you and they are required to tell you what that reason is.

There are, however, occasions when the police can search anyone in a certain area, for example when there is evidence that serious violence has taken place or may take place, (Powers under S60 Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994) or a terrorist threat has been identified, (powers under the Terrorism Act 2000). The officer should explain this to you and must be searching for items to be used in connection with terrorism or violence.

You should not be stopped just because of your age, race, ethnic background, nationality, faith, the language you speak or because you have committed a crime in the past.

The police can stop or stop and search you:

As part of anti-terrorism efforts
If they think you're carrying a weapon, drugs or stolen property
If there has been serious violence or disorder in the vicinity
If they are looking for a suspect who fits your description [/quote]

[muska25101847]

im ex army and end of the day its thinks like this why we are missing bits of our kits no tax=no defence as the tax is what pays for it so im sorry i dont agree that anyone is a free man of the land stuff as i dont think there is anyone that is one you all benafit from tax so PAY IT

[ratticusmc]

muska - you were a member of her majesties army, defending a country that makes all of its monies through taxes and then uses those taxes to fund illegal wars on "terrorism". My sister is int he navy, my grandad was a cheif petty officer, my uncle ranks highly in the army. They all know what I'm on about because they've actually taken the time to go and research it all, not be sheep in the flock that does what it's told, pays whats it's told to pay and beleives everything it hears.

[gsxf1100]

thats why i never been interested in the army at all.
i refuse thinking what others want me too.
and i dont agree with the majority off the law.
investigate and you find ways for youre own benefits.
as lurch found a way so did i.

we both on different levels and ways but doing the same thing. apart from taxes, but i find one day a legal way other then agree to all the negaitve points to do so.

and i tell you some - i would not be ashamed off it.

brown is not by taking all this amount on money every month for p*ssin on us.